A common theme brought up when feminists debate genderists is that not all trans* people are attempting to switch between two genders. (For those not in the loop, the asterisk after trans refers to transgender and transsexual individuals, as well as “genderqueer, Non-Binary, Genderfluid, Genderfuck, Intersex, Third gender, Transvestite, Cross-dresser, Bi-gender, Trans man, Trans woman, Agender“). From this wording alone, it is clear that those who do believe they are opting out of the gender binary are actually playing with gender. If one is participating in a genderfuck or calls themselves genderfluid, there is still an assumption that two genders exist and that stereotypes from the two genders can be mixed and matched. But, what about someone who considers themselves not to have a gender at all? What is the feminist response to this?
We have different definitions of gender. Queers and postmodernists, as well as the LGBTQ movement as a whole, sees gender as something that happens in one’s head. Various items and activities are assigned to each gender. If one hangs out in radical circles and has never strongly fit in with fellow members of her sex (in the case of women: not wearing make-up, being very into sports, not knowing “how” to dress, etc), she may start to question whether she is actually a woman. In the past, she might have been deemed a lesbian. Now, she may still be regarded as not “a proper” woman, but she has the option of not being woman-identified (note that this is NOT the same as “identifying as a woman.” Being woman-identified means identifying with women as a social class, not choosing to identify as a woman in your head). Instead she can say she’s not actually a woman at all. Thus, we end up with houses where different people, largely women, end up wanting to be called “zhe,” “they”, “hir”, etc and precious energy is spent making sure there is respect for each person’s pronoun of choice.
Feminists see gender as an arrangement of power between two social classes. This plays out differently in different places. Some examples include: rape, battery, incest, child marriage, FGM, and female infanticide. Although male supremacy takes different forms in different cultures, it still exists. The ones oppressed are still women. How spending time making sure others use the preferred pronoun assists in dismantling this system, I do not know.
Additionally, feminists are angry that the prominent, male-based LGBTQ movement erases lesbian feminism. Today’s generation of women is taught to believing they cannot love other women unless they are “born that way”. Yet, we know that both women and men’s sexuality is capable of change. Indeed, lesbian existence more generally is erased under the LGBTQ label. There tend to be special groups for the other letters of the alphabet, but the needs that lesbians have, as women loving women in a patriarchal society, are completely dismissed by LGBTQ groups.
The vast majority of people self-identify as non-gendered are FAAB. It is important to look at who is doing what to whom. All of us are assigned a sex at birth and are forced into gender roles to go along with it. But, it is females who get the raw end of the deal, because virtually every part of modern society is male-dominant, male-centered, and male-identified. Men have nothing to gain by seeing themselves as ‘non-genedered’ and a whole lot of entitlement to lose. But women are using this stance as a kind of personal escape route in an attempt to get out of the position of fuck-object. Additionally, demanding respect for one’s pronoun choices may be the first time a woman actually voices demands on her behalf. Being vocal about one’s choice of gender is a way to feel empowered without having material power.
Personal solutions don’t bring down the system. Some, if not many, of the women who declare themselves outside of the gender binary do so at least in part because they know just how brutal the system of gender hierarchy is. They want it to end, but how does one do that? Declaring oneself outside of the gender binary can make sense from this perspective. However, one has to ask what this is doing to really threaten power structures of oppression. Is a man not going to rape a woman because she self identifies as genderqueer? Somehow, I don’t think so. And when she is raped, she will still be raped as a woman.
This is because, under male supremacy, women are fuck-objects. When men are raped, they take the social role of women as a rape victim. Men know this; to take but one example, a man raped in Abu-Grahib said a male soldier drew a woman on his back before he raped him. To the rapist, this man was socially male. It wouldn’t have mattered one iota whether this male “identified” as outside the binary; this would not have stopped his rape. (Keep in mind the likelihood of an individual male being raped in a male-prison is the same as a female being raped under what we currently call free conditions).
It’s much, much harder to think about creating a broad-based social movement to end the subordination of women to men than to make the personal choice to identify as outside the gender binary. The feminists that I know do not fit into some stereotypical feminine ideal, but they don’t say doing so in itself is a political act. Not shaving one’s legs or wearing make-up, etc. are forms of individual of resistance that can help give women the self-respect to work on attacking larger political institution. But for that, we need an actual social movement.
None of us “consent” to gender. An argument I sometimes hear from trans* folks is that by not calling them whatever they wish to be called, people are imposing their will on them without their consent. I find this argument absolute ludicrous. As I have discussed previously, the entire argument in favor of “consent” uses an anti-feminist framework. Consent is not of importance under conditions of inequality. There are those who believe it’s perfectly fine for women to consent to being murdered and used for porn, as I learned recently (if you want details on that quote, email me). Next, none of us chose our gender, nor did we choose to be born under male supremacy, white supremacy, and capitalism. What is important is how we behave in our attempts to change such conditions. Couldn’t it also be said that forcing women to accept people raised as men into our bathrooms is non-consensual? But somehow, the idea of women’s consent holds no importance in this case. Consent is a favorite word of rapists, and feminists reject it.
Feminists are not enforcing the system of gender by stating that women and men are social groups; it is male supremacy that creates the caste system in which women are fuck-objects. To bring down the system we need to dis-identify with it; in other words, women need to identify with their own social group. Men need to admit they have privilege and work with other men on figuring out the root sources of male entitlement and domination. (HINT!! Rape culture needs to stop! Men need to stop owning women’s bodies, whether via rape or FGM).
Once again, I ask you: how can we bring down patriarchy if some women won’t even say that they’re women? A social movement cannot happen until we name and describe reality. The gender we are is one such (social) reality. Getting together with other women to talk about our lives may not be as much fun as “fucking” with gender (who is the one getting fucked, I wonder?), but it is essential in working towards an egalitarian society.
For more on how patriarchy operates as a structural system, I recommend Marilyn Frye’s Politics of Reality and Allan Johnson’s The Gender Knot
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49 responses to “Does identifying as outside the gender binary help eliminate gender?”
disturbinglynormal
January 5th, 2012 at 20:18
I identify as genderqueer, and it has nothing to do with my feminism. Do I understand that, having an expressed biological sex of female, I am socially classed as a woman? Yes. But my identity is about making sense of myself, to myself. Not about subverting a dominant paradigm, or somehow making a statement. It is about finding a way to meet my own eyes in the mirror. I don’t give a good goddamn if you like it or not– you’re not the one who has to live in my body, or who has to find my place in a shifting and changing society.
Does it help eliminate gender? No. I don’t want to eliminate gender. Group identity is something very important in the creation of individual identity, and gender is one of the ways we find our group identity. I do, however, want to recognize the experience of all people as valid, regardless of where they fit on the spectrum between hyper-masculine and hyper-feminine. Because I want my experience to be recognized as valid.
m Andrea
January 8th, 2012 at 19:04
Validating the feelings of an individual is not nearly as important as validating the civil rights of a group. Seriously odd that this needs explaining to anyone…
m Andrea
January 8th, 2012 at 19:13
I have finally gotten the “like” button to work. unbelievable. Oh, and great post, thank you!
womononajourney
January 8th, 2012 at 19:38
Yay for getting the “like” button to work!
I appreciate the support for this post. They help keep me going.
disturbinglynormal
January 5th, 2012 at 21:41
Oh and here, a response blog: http://disturbinglynormal.wordpress.com/2012/01/05/i-am-not-a-vagina/
womononajourney
January 7th, 2012 at 11:42
You have approved other comments, and commented on that blog post yourself, but you never approved my other comment to your blog. Note that I have approved all of your comments.
Anyhow, for those interested, I asked if there was any room for critique of the trans* movement at all. If so, where is the line for approved critique and critique considered transphobic? I also mentioned that just because one says “this is my identity” does not make the topic off limits for discussion. The meaning of lesbian identity has been and continues to be debated in feminist and non-feminist circles.
disturbinglynormal
January 9th, 2012 at 02:25
I approved of and replied to your comment. I’ve been sick lately and am moving somewhat slowly, sorry.
womononajourney
January 9th, 2012 at 14:20
I left a second comment, which I don’t see approved. I asked if any criticism of the trans* movement is off limits. Where is the line for what is and isn’t off limits? Just because it’s someone’s identity, doesn’t mean it’s off limits for critique.
disturbinglynormal
January 12th, 2012 at 20:28
I’ve approved every comment that’s come through on that post. It looks to me like you left one comment with two parts, and that’s what I approved.
As for where the line is: I don’t know, honestly. And I can admit that. I do think that identity is hard enough to determine without attacking those who identify as on the trans* spectrum.
womononajourney
January 12th, 2012 at 23:14
You are right, my comments were in one comment. Sorry ’bout that!
KG
January 6th, 2012 at 01:49
This is a brilliant post, that does a good job of distinguishing the radical feminist approach to gender from the queer approach. Is it okay if I link to this post on my blog?
womononajourney
January 6th, 2012 at 11:52
Thank you KG. You can definitely link to this post from your blog!
GallusMag
January 6th, 2012 at 02:41
DisturbinglyNormal (perfect nick btw) you say that for you: (paraphrasing) genderqueer is a form of first world naval gazing self-reflection, detached from any objective reality. And you say that genderqueer is a trendy subcultural group that wouldn’t exist without upholding the behaviors of male domination and female subordination, which you want to maintain because you want need the validation of others to uphold your self-centered internal life.
That sounds more like a cult than a movement. Something to help you avoid objective reality, rather than to cope with it.
What on earth makes you describe yourself as a feminist? Feminists don’t want to maintain the sex hierarchy because they fantasize about being the speshul snowflake that can magically opt out into a fantasy world validated by other deniers.
disturbinglynormal
January 9th, 2012 at 02:30
I think you misunderstood my main point. My point was that I am trans-gendered, outside the binary (though I recognize such a binary does exist, and probably will for quite some time.) I don’t support a sex hierarchy, but I do want the right to say that I don’t identify as a woman, because I don’t. I do not see “woman” when I look in the mirror. I see someone androgynous, though slightly more effeminate at times than masculine.
I describe myself as a feminist because I believe that every person who is, deserves the right to control their own bodies and lives, regardless of gender. Whether that means they are a woman, a man, or somewhere on the trans* spectrum. My whole point in replying to this post was to speak up against being erased or rendered invisible.
To say “some women won’t even call themselves women” as womononajourney does, implies that I am somehow a woman even though I don’t identify as such. That is inherently buying into the subjugative hierarchy and saying that one’s sex determines one’s role. Isn’t that sort of… anti-feminist?
womononajourney
January 9th, 2012 at 14:31
“I don’t support a sex hierarchy, but I do want the right to say that I don’t identify as a woman, because I don’t. I do not see “woman” when I look in the mirror. I see someone androgynous, though slightly more effeminate at times than masculine. ”
Do you think if all females said we didn’t identify as women, rape would stop? Men would stop beating their partners? The misogynist pornography industry would come to a screeching halt? I’m concerned with stopping male power over women.
“I do not see “woman” when I look in the mirror. I see someone androgynous, though slightly more effeminate at times than masculine.” Isn’t this basing “woman” on steroetypes of what it means to look like one?
“I describe myself as a feminist because I believe that every person who is, deserves the right to control their own bodies and lives, regardless of gender.”
This sounds like a libertarian perspective.
“To say “some women won’t even call themselves women” as womononajourney does, implies that I am somehow a woman even though I don’t identify as such. That is inherently buying into the subjugative hierarchy and saying that one’s sex determines one’s role. Isn’t that sort of… anti-feminist? ”
I’m white. But I don’t feel white inside. I don’t even identify with any race/ethnicity. I don’t even see a race when I look in the mirror. Race is a social construction anyway. So, I get offended when people tell me I’m white. Doesn’t the fact that I don’t identify with a race matter? Isn’t saying that I actually *am* white….racist?
(Note: The above is meant as an illustrative example. I didn’t want to use an example that involved someone else’s race/ethnicity, so I used my own. The point is obviously that saying one doesn’t see race means being blind to the impacts of race. The same is true of gender).
disturbinglynormal
January 12th, 2012 at 20:37
“Do you think if all females said we didn’t identify as women, rape would stop? Men would stop beating their partners? The misogynist pornography industry would come to a screeching halt? I’m concerned with stopping male power over women.”
No. I don’t. I’m concerned with stopping violence in general, as well… regardless of who’s perpetrating and who’s the victim. Males are not the only ones who rape, and females are not the only ones who get raped. Males are not the only ones who abuse, and females are not the only ones who get abused. Shouldn’t we focus on saying violence is bad, regardless of the genders of the people involved?
“Isn’t this basing “woman” on steroetypes of what it means to look like one? ”
no. I use that explanation because it seems to help. Obviously, it doesn’t for you, so let me try again. I don’t think there’s a right way and a wrong way to look like a woman, or to be a woman. I simply don’t identify as a woman. There’s a whole set of written and unwritten expectations inherent with being woman-identified that do not fit me. Nor do I identify as a man. There’s a whole set of written and unwritten expectations inherent with being man-identified that do not fit me. I am androgynous. Try as I might, I cannot believe that I am a woman– and trust me, I’ve tried. It feels just as wrong as if someone told you you were male. You’ve said you are female, and why should I question that?
Oh, I am a libertarian. Left-leaning libertarian. Sure.
Um, as for the race thing…
Look. I’m not saying there’s not male privilege, like I wouldn’t hesitate to say there’s cis privilege, hetero privilege, or white privilege. I am simply saying that while my biology may make some people try to force me into the disadvantaged/unprivileged group of “woman,” that’s no more accurate than someone saying because I have fairly light skin I must not be Hispanic. And yet– I am. Fancy that. People making inaccurate assumptions about me is something I seek to change, but understand that I may not always be able to change.
And I can recognize, and work to overcome, privilege, without identifying as a member of a particular group in a system with only two options.
m Andrea
January 15th, 2012 at 23:48
Hmmm. The question is: does class membership make a difference when deciding how to fight social injustice?
And the queer theory answer is: no
racism is apparently just humans oppressing others, and the reason some humans oppress humans has nothing to do with anything. In that case, the best tool to fight oppression would be to target rudeness — y’know, those mean humans who oppress other humans for no reason.
(Btw, womanonajournay, You are totally awesome, sorry I’m haunting your blog but there’s a lot of interesting tangents to be found here.)
womononajourney
January 16th, 2012 at 15:56
Hey m Andrea,
no need to apologize! I appreciate you being here! I sometimes don’t have the time/energy to respond to every comment, so it’s nice when readers pitch in.
GallusMag
January 6th, 2012 at 02:43
Wonderful post WOAJ.
womononajourney
January 6th, 2012 at 11:52
Thank you.
KittyBarber
January 6th, 2012 at 11:16
Thank you for this excellent explanation of the feminist view of the politics of transgender. Feminists, by definition, DO want to change the world, do want to eliminate gender, gender roles, and the prison that they create for women. You can call yourself a feminist, but if you don’t want change, then you simply are not. Change one’s body to fit into a sick society? How can this be in ANY WAY progressive? It is a counter-revolutionary act. It is anti-feminist, and assimilationist at it’s very peak.
Hecuba
January 6th, 2012 at 23:23
I could call I am a wolf or even a dragon and yet whilst I believe this to be true male supremacist system will still see me as female and mere fact I claim I’m a wolf or a dragon will not alter one iota how male supremacy views women. Also Josephine and Joe public automatically code the person they are speaking to as either male or female and that won’t change simply because some individuals claim to be not the sex male supremacist has labelled them. Doesn’t work that way because women are not all individuals freely enacting whatever they wish. Male domination and male power is real but because it has existed for so it has become invisible until feminists raised the obvious issues. Such as why are certain jobs mandated as ‘male only’ why are men’s work valued far more highly than women’s work? It’s not rocket science working out the reason is because men have declared themselves to be the default human and therefore we mere women (sic) are always defined in relation to men. So no my claiming I’m a wolf or anything else will not make any difference until such time as male supremacy is eradicated and if everyone is busily engaged in claiming ‘I can call myself anything I wish then the male surpremacist systems remains dominant. That is why a political movement is essential a movement of women determined to eliminate male supremacy because one woman can’t do it but thousands and thousands of women all working together to eliminate male domination over women does work. That’s what men and male supremacy are terrified of – that one day women will rise up. Divide and conquer is male supremacy mantra and men bond together to ensure they retain their male power and male domination over all women. Yes even those women who claim to be ‘gender queer.’ No biological woman can escape male supremacist system.
Agree Womononajourney – Politics of Reality and The Gender Knot are essential reading and I promote these two books at every opportunity. These two books cut through all the rhetoric and tell it like it really is not as we think it is.
Lysandra
January 7th, 2012 at 19:22
I am so tired of the “I am not a vagina” (or penis or whatever word for genitals one wants to use) as if that wins the argument. Of COURSE you’re not just your genitals.
“female biology matters in an analysis of sex-based oppression” =/= “all people are just walking, talking genitals”
Jesus.
There’s such an incredible intellectual dishonesty in that. And combined with the special snowflake nature of expecting everyone in the world to give two shits about how I FEEL about my “gender” really just exposes the incredible immaturity of this queer theory.
Francois Tremblay
January 7th, 2012 at 21:26
Great entry, I definitely benefited from it. You highlight the main point that seems to need to be repeated again and again, “it’s not about you.” It may be empowering for people to consider themselves genderless or genderbending but it’s not a feminist act. People need to be explained this so much that I’m starting to think all feminist blogs should have as subtitle “this is not about you!”
Thank you also for linking to your older entry “Critiquing the “consent-positive” movement.” I am going to quote it in a future entry I am working on. I am used to bumping into these arguments when I debunk voluntaryism, but now I’ve discovered that the voluntaryist fallacy is used for more than economics!
womononajourney
January 7th, 2012 at 23:26
It’s always nice to see a new screen name around here! I’m so glad this entry, as well as the one on consent, is helpful to you. You’re so right that just because something feels personally empowering does not make it feminist. But you can’t really debate one’s feelings, only one’s thoughts.
I look forward to checking out your blog!
Francois Tremblay
January 8th, 2012 at 07:35
You probably wouldn’t like my blog. I have a certain number of pet topics, and radfem is not really on the radar, at least not yet. I’m in the middle of a series on abortion right now.
mx. punk
January 8th, 2012 at 20:42
i may be unwelcome here, but in case you’re interested, i’m going to share my thoughts with you. i’ll do my best to be thorough and coherent; feel free to request further information/clarification. this is an important conversation.
my gender is non-binary. i have always known my gender to be non-binary. when i started kindergarten, i didn’t use the bathroom for the first few months because i knew i didn’t belong in the girls’ bathroom or in the boys’ bathroom. i have never thought of myself as female or as male. ever.
i did not take stock of my attributes, hobbies, feelings etc., classify each of them as “female” or “male”, and tally them up. i am incapable of such tallying because i don’t believe that such traits etc. belong to specific genders. i didn’t say to myself, “well, i have these “unwomanly” traits– so i must not be a woman!” that would be ludicrous because women can be anything and there are no such things as “unwomanly” traits (the same is true for all genders). i know that i’m neither female nor male– and it feels very simple, very natural to me.
“…when [they are] raped, [they] will still be raped as a woman.” yes, their rapist will no doubt consider them a woman. i’m not going to argue with that. however, i don’t think that misperception changes reality. here’s a real-life example; when i was a kid, a few people assumed that my mother was actually my older sister (she looked quite young). my mother didn’t stop being my mother and start being my sister– even if every single person who passed us on the street had thought we were siblings, we still would’ve been mother and child. perception can be very powerful, but the truth is still valuable.
this is not a fad and this is not speshul snowflake syndrome; this is my life. being open about my non-binary gender doesn’t get me “out of the position of fuck-object”; it certainly doesn’t protect me from rape. that’s ok because i’m open about my gender in order to be honest– not in order to “get out of the position of fuck-object”. being open about my gender doesn’t make me “feel empowered”; it makes me feel like i’m not lying. it makes me feel like i can form real, truth-based connections with other people.
thanks for reading! i may write a post about this. if i do, i’ll link back here.
juliasiemprejulia
January 8th, 2012 at 22:07
‘The male based LGBT movement’ is something you never see, yet it explains an awful lot. I used to have a typically liberal attitude about transgender. Now that I’ve gone deeper in to it, I don’t like the erasure of women and especially of women-only space. When I see an activist event advertised as women and trans’ I know that it will not be the radical feminism that defines my life and my activism, so I usually don’t go. I’m all for separate spaces for any group who wants and needs them.
Last year at two different Take Back The Night rallies, women werwe not even mentioned, while trans and boys werwe mentioned many times (in terms of who gets raped!). At one rally at the university, the main speaker was F to M, and when I questioned the sexuall assault people at their information table, they told me that they can not specify who does the rape and who is more often raped without threat of a lawsuit.
I asked their gradute intern who she mostly gets calls from on their hotline. She said, of course,
women. Who men raped or sexually assaulted.
womononajourney
January 9th, 2012 at 14:15
Wow, they can get threatened with a lawsuit for speaking reality?! Now *that’s* crazy!
julia
January 8th, 2012 at 22:13
What do you all think of the idea that F to M transfolk in a lesbian relationship before they transition turn their relationship in to a heterosexual one. I wonder how this is for their partner?
Boadie MacLeod
January 12th, 2012 at 12:22
Brilliant post. Thank you.
What the fuck is “genderfuck”? This shit is ridiculous.
womononajourney
January 12th, 2012 at 23:19
One more thought to add: While I don’t believe one can identify as a gender, since I see gender as a system of power, any person can choose to identify WITH patriarchy (and white supremacy and capitalism, etc)–or not. In my view, seeing gender as something that can be changed according to one’s feelings does not take into account that gender is composed of power relations.
mx. punk
January 13th, 2012 at 01:05
so, for clarification’s sake, do you see gender as “real” in any way other than in how other people see you? if i may be so bold, do you consider your own gender “real”? or is your own gender only “real” because of your position in this highly-gendered society?
thanks!
womononajourney
January 13th, 2012 at 13:18
Hi Mx. Punk,
Thanks for asking.
I don’t see gender as being about how people see you. It has to do with power relations. It’s a sad fact that girls and women over the globe experience the boot of oppression via child marriages, sexual slavery, rape, incest, infanticide, forced pregnancy, poverty, illiteracy, and so forth.
The consequences of gender are real. Other than that, no, I don’t see gender as real.
mx. punk
January 14th, 2012 at 19:33
that’s really interesting. i think i know what you mean about power relations; the system segregates people in two categories, men and women, and distributes power according to category. of course, there are other factors– race, age, lifestyle, sexual orientation.
it’s interesting that you don’t see gender-disconnected-from-consequence as real. i honestly don’t know if i agree with you. to give a personal example, i am usually perceived as female, so i suffer from the same gender consequences as women and girls do. i won’t go into detail here, but i share many, many experiences with women. i know that this will continue unless the patriarchy suddenly collapses– but i’m still comfortable with my non-female gender. this leads me to believe that gender is either inherent and real or i’ve been completely brainwashed. either way, my real/unreal gender is so basic to my psyche that i know it isn’t going anywhere.
so i conclude that if gender is: a) real, i must fight daily to end gender-based oppression. or b) unreal and i’ve been brainwashed, i must fight daily to end gender-based oppression– thereby fighting to free future generations from gender.
this is something i will continue to think about throughout my life, i’m sure. thank you for your insight.
Niko
January 13th, 2012 at 02:24
I am genderqueer. That is a fact of my identity so basic that no accident of biology can describe it. I am often perceived as a woman. I am also often perceived as am effeminate gay man. Neither of these perceptions is accurate(for the most part), and neither of these identifiers really allows for the shifting and subtle nature of how i interact with my gender. Quite a few of my partners are also non binary. We all come from a variety of different backgrounds and upbringings. Those experiences, while they shape us and affect us, are not all that we are. We are only what we create ourselves to be. My identification as a feminist has to do with my survival. Go look up the statistics on the rape, murder, homelessness, and drug use rate of trans people. This culture is actively working to destroy me and mine. My identity as a feminist is about the recognition of that, and the recognition that that is part of a larger cycle of misogyny that punishes and dehumanizes anyone that is perceived as feminine and/or wrongly gendered. Not only that, for folks like myself that fall outside the gender binary, there is a huge struggle that happens in order for us to be seen at all. We are dismissed and thought of as traitors to the communities that might have once nurtured us.
One thing that has brought me a lot of pain is watching and interacting in the border wars between trans folks of all stripes and some folk from the queer women’s community. After attending michfest for two years in a row, i dearly dearly wish that the healing and power of the space could be less volatile and fraught with strife. I see women’s space as a gorgeous and beautiful thing that has SO MUCH POWER. I want to see it continue, open to all women. I also want to see more spaces focused on discussions on gender in general, because i feel that “women and trans” spaces implicitly end up saying that you cannot be a woman and trans at the same time. Michfest and women’s spaces are not spaces that i am a part of any more, even though many of the people who mentored me and gave me strength reside there. In fact, it is partially because of that that i don’t go into them. Upon my coming out as trans, and also particularly having a trans woman as one of my partners, there was an intense backlash from number of people that i had considered part of my community. I got called a traitor, and a threat. I got called straight, and told that i was perpetuating rape culture by giving my love and affection towards one of the most gorgeous people i have known, simply because of the assumptions that so-called “feminists” had about her and our relationship. I don’t want other young queer people to experience the rejection and pain that i experienced, and posts like this, and the ensuing comments, make me cringe. Please don’t presume that because i do not call myself by the names i was given means that i do not care about where they come from and how they are used. Don’t presume that because we are outside of your community we reject your right to existence, and return the favor.
womononajourney
January 13th, 2012 at 23:42
Hi Niko,
Thanks for taking the time to post here. I’m genuinely sorry that you experience this post as playing into your experiences of rejection, etc. My intent is to bring up questions that I see as being important for discussion. I don’t have all the answers, but I find the fact that every year more and more former lesbians reject even identifying with the gender they used to love, troublesome to say the least.
How would you suggest feminists offer a critique of transgenderism? Is there even a way to do this without tripping over some people’s feelings?
SheilaG
January 14th, 2012 at 17:53
If you are the dominant class, you don’t have to “identify” as anything. I’m white, and I never have to refer to whiteness, because it is the dominant race in America. So you can identify with anything at all, but it doesn’t eliminate class, race and sex domination. Maybe I had an African ancestor, if I did a dna test, but that doesn’t change the fact that I was raised in a white dominant world, and that I gain power and social acceptance instantly because I am white.
Nothing we say about ourselves means anything, because sex, class and race trump everything. As radical feminists, we are simply doing the hardest thing on earth, which is to try to awaken all women, and to rise up against patriarchy. It is about women gaining real power as an oppressed class. You can not get out of capitalism if you live in a capitalist country, for example. What you see in the mirror has nothing to do with the sex class system.
It is simply a form of denial about the reality of what men do to women daily.
I could identify as Irish, as French Canadian ancestry, as Jewish, as Russian, but all people see and treat me as is a white bread midwestern woman. Now I can reject slave clothing and male pleasing behavior (no make-up, high heels etc.), and have a basic butch dyke look, but that doesn’t change the fact that a man could rape me, or that men feel they can comment on me sexually, which believe it or not, they do now and then. It changes nothing.
Radical feminism is about putting women front and center as an oppressed class worldwide, that is its function. No amount of wanting to BE something different changes this. And the trans movement seeks to erase women, and to erase radical lesbian feminism and its authors, and I would seriously think about this. Men try to erase women as radical beings, just as any ruling class tries to suppress its servants. You can not identify as a woman, but believe me, if were in prison, a prison guard could rape you anyway.
SheilaG
January 14th, 2012 at 17:56
P.S. This is one of the best posts on radical feminism and trans I have ever read.
Thank you!!!
womononajourney
January 14th, 2012 at 22:16
OMG! Thank you so much for telling me that! It’s nice to be appreciated…
Bev Jo
January 15th, 2012 at 20:47
Thank you so much for this post, WOAJ. And thank you too, Sheila — brilliant as always.
I just hate when these self-hating women call us “cis,” which is even nastier than the other slurs men call females.
And thank you for daring to answer some of the trans cult cons and lies.
disturbinglynormal
January 16th, 2012 at 06:26
I don’t mean to be insulting or rude, but I am somewhat curious. Why is “cis” an insult? What is insulting about saying your gender and identity agree?
womononajourney
January 17th, 2012 at 00:23
You’re not being rude or insulting!
Speaking for myself, I cringe every time I hear the word “cis.” I don’t want the little girls I see and care for today to grow up to be called “cis”/girls or “cis” women. They’re just girls.
“Cis” is supposed to be a reminder of a mark of privilege. Specifically, I have heard it compared to white privilege. Women are expected to constantly compare our life histories, whatever they may be, and yes, as varied as they are, to those of male-born persons. These include former cross-dressers,ex- marines, and males who were able to benefit from male privilege in any one of a number of ways, such as being automatically thought of as gifted in math or science. This in no way discounts the very hard lives some males experiences, but one can have an unusually hard life without facing structural oppression. There have been numerous occasions, including all those I am not even aware of, where girls and women have tried to talk about getting their period, fighting for reproductive justice, raising awareness about breast cancer, and so forth, only to be told to discuss these female-centric issues discriminates against trans-women.
Using the word “cis” is just another way to con women into thinking we are not worth fighting for; after all, women are willing to put any group ahead of ourselves and yet we have been oppressed longer than any other group. As I said in my original post, if women aren’t even willing to say we’re women, how can we have a women’s movement?!
mx. punk
January 17th, 2012 at 01:36
“cis” indicates a concurrence between one’s gender-assigned-at-birth and one’s actual gender. it is a latin prefix meaning “on this side of”, “on the same side [as]“. “trans” is a latin prefix meaning “across”, “beyond”, “on the other side [of]“.
“cis” is applied to people who aren’t trans because “cis” is the opposite of “trans”, the idea being that both terms are value-neutral opposites. the point of “cis gender” is that it doesn’t devalue or other trans people and it doesn’t devalue or other cis people. when somebody uses “cis” as an insult, feel free to hand them a dictionary and tell them to get it right.
“…tried to talk about getting their period, fighting for reproductive justice, raising awareness about breast cancer, and so forth, only to be told to discuss these female-centric issues discriminate against trans-women.” if you talk about ALL WOMEN getting periods, you discriminate against women who DON’T get periods– including trans women. however, simply talking about getting periods is not discriminatory against anyone, in my opinion. insisting that it is discriminatory is ridiculous– ridiculous people are to blame, not the word “cis”.
in queer theory, “cis” and “trans” are invaluable terms. they might be irrelevant in radical feminism, though. ???
womononajourney
January 17th, 2012 at 14:38
Hi mx punk,
I am aware of what cis means.
Queer theory and radical feminism have completely opposite goals. Thus, when I am called “cis,” I see myself being banished to a queer box, which does not fit me. Queer theory is not fighting for the world I want, though it’s certainly a lot more popular in academia than feminism. It seems important to ask why this might be. (Because it serves to uphold the status quo while disguising itself as radical?).
disturbinglynormal
January 17th, 2012 at 22:22
@WOAJ (Can I shorten your sn like that?)
Thanks for explaining it. I see what you are saying. It sucks to get shoved in a box that doesn’t fit. I completely empathize with that part.
mx. punk
January 18th, 2012 at 23:27
“I am aware of what cis means.” the definition wasn’t really aimed at you. i felt that there was some general (mild) confusion about the meaning of “cis”. sorry for the incoherence; i shouldn’t have included that in my reply to you.
“…when I am called ‘cis,’ I see myself being banished to a queer box, which does not fit me.” i get this. i know how it feels to be “banished to a…box which does not fit me.”
i won’t apply the word “cis” to you, but i will continue to use it in general terms when discussing queer theory. there are simply no other ways to say “non-trans” without othering and/or passing judgement on someone.
“They’re just girls.” this goes for trans girls as well. that’s why i use the word “cis”– because underneath labels like “trans girl” and “cis girl”, girls are just girls. personally, i wouldn’t mind trashing words like “trans” and “cis” and just calling all girls “girls”. that’s just me, though.
SheilaG
January 15th, 2012 at 23:36
Political analysis takes hard work. I think a lot of women get confused by the notion of “personal choice.” This is not what radical feminism is. It is not about describing personal choices, it is about describing the real world women live in, how we struggle to free ourselves from male supremacy, how we wake up to the fact that we are the sex class slaves of men.
You can go under the trans male medical machine, you can wear make-up as a male, you can identify as genderqueer or not see yourself as a woman. How often do I hear the inane comment “Oh I support human rights, I’m a humanist, feminism is too limiting…” That’s is a clear derail, but I hear both women and men say this as a derail to radical lesbian feminism all the time.
Choice is just really about several things…. but the one choice women don’t have is to NOT be treated as women. Male to trans are not treated as male, they are treated as male impersonators, for example. Lesbian partners generally don’t stay with lesbian lovers who “transition” into males… Chaz Bono being the latest.
All this talk of gender, or bionary… is just that, a diversion, a way of wasting radical women’s time fomenting lesbian feminist revolution. It is about males invading Michigan, so what else is new? Gender is b.s., and any time I hear that word, I hear “woman erase, feminism derail, lesbian erase, women’s revolution reject…” Gender studies takes WOMEN off the academic department list nicely. It makes it harder for feminist women to find each other in academia, for example. It makes it possible for males to teach women’s studies, males who actually admit to attempting to kill their own girlfriends, males who admit opening to having sex with their female students, males like this teach women’s studies… I kid you not, and they are big fans of the word “gender.” If ever you hear that word RUN run fast. Look for the real thing WOMAN, Radical feminism, radical lesbian feminism…. ever notice how patriarchy is not on the word list of the trans invaders? Patriachy has always been the trojan horse of the world, and patriarchy constantly invents ways for women to get distracted and siphoned off to every cause on earth except freedom for women, freedom FROM male domination, freedom FROM MEN. I want freedom from men, I want spaces and towns where they don’t exist at all. I want an end to rape, and an end to rape means woman only space. When men are there they rape … they attempt rape and intimidation with words (male to trans), they attempt the colonization of women’s bodies any way they can get it. Patriarchy relies on women’s kindness to work for everyone on earth but ourselves…. meek, mild, self-sacrificing… male pleasing at its best… gender transgression? Who are they kidding? Gender is just another male mind game, another attack on radical feminism… the only philosophy that puts women’s freedom from male tryanny front and center stage! It’s pretty simple.
Bev Jo
January 18th, 2012 at 23:15
I agree completely, WOAJ, about “cis.” Besides being one more elitist term that you have to be part of the in-crowd to know (which is the opposite of original Radical Feminist politics) it is used against us as females. I don’t know of any woman who agreed to be called “cis.” It’s part of the trans con to separate us from each other and to sneakily include men in the definition of women.
You are absolutely right that “queer theory” is much preferred in academia than Radical or any Feminism. It’s a right wing politics.
I agree with you, Sheila, too — of course!
It is so important to refuse every single trick and con they play. Do not ever (even for “strategy,” because it backfires) give them our pronouns or call them “women” in any way. There is no such thing as a “trans woman.” They are men! We are not cis anything. We are women. It is all so simple.
Once you accept a tiny part of their scheme, you are drawn in. Agreeing to their flawed terminology is agreeing to their lies. Accepting “cis” means accepting “trans” as a real idea. It is no more real than “trans species.” Or “trans paraplegic.”
I just saw the new episode of Taboo which is on the National Geographic channel. (These are the people who did a story in Riley, the man claiming to be a woman who loves to lay in a crib and wear diapers as part of his baby identity.) Last night the story was about what I’m positive is an M2T (I missed the beginning), about how much he wants to be paraplegic. He goes around in a wheelchair, getting people to help him, taking disabled parking places, lying to people at work. He has just always felt this way since little. He has the whole line down pat, exactly as trannies describe how they feel. Whether it’s true or not, he knows exactly how to make it convincing. He wants to come out to everyone about it, and there was a scene with a co-worker (who I thought looked like he wanted to kill him. I can imagine a lot of people feel sorry for him, thinking he really can’t walk, and will feel furious at this con.) What he says will really make him happiest, he says, is to get surgery that will sever his spinal cord so he can become a real paraplegic.
Another man I saw on tv had chainsawed his legs off, so he could fit into his paraplegic identity. Some could feel sorry for him, but his wife was furious, since the het marriage contract is about men using their vast more earning power to support their wife and children for services rendered. His wife was yelling, “What about us? What about your children?!!” He didn’t care. It’s all about him. That’s all that counts.
I’m guessing that people who actually are paraplegic unwillingly will not knock themselves out encouraging, supporting, and otherwise submitting to these men — or that they would welcome them into support groups. They might if they get harassed about the proper etiquette though, like what happens with anyone who refuses to accept men as Lesbians. Could this be a new trend, where we are told we must respect such men’s choices? It is an obvious extension of the trans movement.
At what point do women get fed up with trying to understand and cater to these men?
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